mckarlie

I have happiness in my heart and a thorn in my soul

Holding onto pain from the past

on July 29, 2013

In a previous blog I speculated that I am holding onto the pain of my past because it is the last tie I have to my family, the last thing that I have that connects me to my Mother. Since starting my blog I have dug up repressed memories of sexual abuse that occurred when I was aged between 7-9, I have written about the physical mental and emotional abuse that went on from age 11-25, I have written about the feelings of betrayal and abandonment I have towards my Mother because not only did she let these things happen to me but she chose the abuser over me and edged me out of her family, she had three children with him within three years and effectively started a new family in which I had no place, I was too difficult and didn’t fit her picture perfect family unit anymore.

My Mother and I were very close before she met her two husbands, we lived on and off with my Grandparents but she treated me very much like a best friend. She married a man out of the blue when I was 7, it wasn’t a happy household and he took great advantage of me when my Mother was working long hours. Somehow she met a much younger man and we moved in with him, she didn’t explain anything to me, we just left one day after a ballet class. I’m still not sure what she knows of the abuse that happened in that house, but I’ve assumed she knows something…based on how she left, but it’s entirely possible she has no idea and she left because she was unhappy in the marriage and had found a new boyfriend.

After her boyfriend left for a job on an island off the north coast of australia, she and I became best friends again. There was a revolving door of men she would date but no one stuck around too long. It was she and I, she would often pull me out of school and we would go on little adventures, staying at beach side cabins mainly.

She left her well paying high stress job for a part time job at the local video store, I think her depression had gotten out of hand and she needed less responsibility. She met a tradesman who was working on the video store and within a few months they were practically living together. He had a penchant for excessive drinking, and she started to ignore me in favour of her new man.

Within six months of meeting she fell pregnant to this man, and he was actively abusing me. I was a chubby teen and he would call me a fat fuck and throw me around, then things got more intense and the verbal and physical abuse escalated. She would yell at him to stop and then tell me the next day things would change, but they never did, and I ended up moving in with my grandparents. They followed a little while after as he would piss all their money up a wall, he drank a great deal and they just didn’t have the money to pay for rent and expenses.

When I started writing my blog I started healing, facing these issues head on was incredibly liberating, but I fear I went too far too quickly, I think I delved too far down.

I cut my family off a few years ago, they are incredibly passive aggressive, always nasty behind each others backs and bitching about each other but then nice to each others faces, my Mother and I always had a strained relationship and my cousin who i grew up with more as a sister always turned our past pain into a competition, discounting my trauma as an exaggeration. I’ve heard through mutual friends and what not, that they all think I’m in the wrong and they did nothing wrong, that I simply went ‘off my head’ and stopped seeing them all. This has bothered me greatly for the few years it’s been since I have seen them. So I decided to write a letter to my Mother, outlining the facts of the past and what i felt actually happened, my mother is a perpetual victim, nothing that ever happens is her fault, it’s always someone or something happening TO her, she never accepts blame or fault. So i wrote this four page letter telling her how it harmed me that not only did she let me be abused for years but she let me down whenever i needed her. that every time in my life when i hit rock bottom and needed her, not only was she not there but she made me feel unwelcome and crazy. An example is when I was in an abusive relationship in new zealand and i managed to sell a painting and get my fare back to australia, i turned up on the doorstep of my grandparents home, my grandparents had always made me welcome there, but the look on her face when she saw me, oh my. She made it clear that i wasn’t welcome there, that i could only stay briefly and had to find somewhere else. I mean, it wasn’t even her house, I had just been through a really traumatic experience and instead of offering me any form of comfort, she made me feel like an absolute piece of shit. Due to this, I kept moving around, relationship after relationship, i would hang onto my partner and often live with them prematurely because i couldn’t live in the family home without causing my mother grief because she knew her husband would get drunk and abuse me, and she’d let it happen, instead of holding him accountable for this she forced me out.

I thought writing this letter would be cathartic, but it’s been over a week and it remains unsent. I want to send it, I want to send it and have her know what she’s done and move on. But after I wrote it i spiraled into a depression that caused me to not write or blog for a week. I’ve barely seen friends, i’ve just been ‘functioning’ not interacting or really living or creating, just being.

Now i wonder if the letter is a mistake, or if it was just traumatic to face and write down all the things she’d done and let happen to me. Will i find peace in sending it to her and closing the chapter? Will it in fact close the chapter? I’m so unsure.

I know that i will never have a relationship with this woman if she doesn’t change dramatically, and honestly i can’t see it happening. So it’s not like i’m holding out hope of a reconciliation. She contacted me just before christmas via facebook and told me she missed her family and wanted to put things back together, we sent a few messages back and forth, I said that i had made some mistakes and there were things i would do differently, and instead of saying sorry or admitting any fault of her own, she said ‘yes you have, i guess i could have been a better role model’. I told her it wasn’t the role model factor that was the issue, and that if we were to have a relationship it had to be positive, that i couldn’t handle the backstabbing and the toxicity of the way the family interacted. She ignored this, and on christmas day sent a message saying ‘merry christmas, your sister will drop some presents by for the girls’ – that was it. It broke my heart all over again.

So, if anyone has had a similar experience with moving past things then let me know. A lot of people say just let go, and believe me i’ve tried, but i need her to know my side of the story, i need her to feel some kind of responsibility, or at least read the letter and know that I think she should feel some kind of responsibility. I’m a grown woman who can barely function most of the time and it’s because of the broken way i grew up. I take responsibility for my mistakes, of which i’ve made many, but now i’m just trying to find some peace.


34 responses to “Holding onto pain from the past

  1. mudtherapist says:

    Wish I had magic words that would make things better. Props to you for when you told your mother the relationship, if there is to be one, has to be positive. You took an important stand. You seem to have a healthy acceptance of the possibility that your Mom may never change. You have to decide for yourself, over time, how many times you can extend invitation to her for positive relationship, how many times you can risk possible rejection and/or disappointment. There is nothing wrong with hope and giving people multiple second chances for relationship. But I do encourage you in your healthy respect for your own boundaries and your own needs, taking space from family when you need it, making yourself available to relationship only as much at a time as you are able to handle. I don’t mean to give you advice, ’cause i sorta hate when people give me advice, but I hope you can hear my encouragement to take care of yourself and your needs. I try to surround yourself with people who I KNOW want to be in positive relationship with me. Then give my negative family members less power to hurt me, as I control, limit, or even increase how much exposure I am willing to risk with them. I don’t have the exact same issues with family that you are describing, but I do relate to having to learn a balance between being open to family members, and protecting my own sanity and mental health. As for “moving past” things…I haven’t found it helpful to try and move “past” anything, but extremely helpful to give myself grace and understanding and self-care as I work, at my own pace, to move “through” things. I hope this makes at least a little sense, as I really feel empathy for what you are going through. With care, mud t.

    • mckarlie says:

      Yeah you’re right, I need to prioritize my sanity before worrying about her reaction. I truly appreciate your comments, family is such a complicated thing and I think I just need to accept that mine isn’t part of my life and that’s ok, disappointing but ok. I think I can get past it, but again you’re right in that first I need to work THROUGH it.

    • Shadow says:

      I know how you feel. I hope you get through everything life throws at you.

  2. Ah Hun so many similarities. My mom became a hermit in 2000 she stopped talking to whole family and it actually meant I had peace for the first time. During that time my natural fathers issues became more clear. I wrote him a 5 page letter telling him all the pain he caused my sister and I . This was mailed to him in 2006 and we haven’t talked since and I am not sure he can ever admit his own issues or if he will ever forgive me for writing that. So no true advice just know I understand and I am lucky to have a stepdad who is my rock and the only real parent I have. Good luck whatever you decide

    • mckarlie says:

      Yeah I’m lucky to have a hubby who’s there for me and my own two beautiful daughters, my mother gave me a great template of what NOT to do as a mother. Thanks for taking the time to read and reply, it was quite a hefty post and I appreciate your input 🙂

  3. There are a few points here in which I can relate. My Father started a new family when I was in my early 20’s and rarely has anything to do with me. I simply don’t think he can face or own up to many of the things he put me through growing up, so it’s easier for him to just live his life with his “new family.” I’ve confronted him but it’s never ended well. For me personally, I had to reach a point where he is no longer an active part of my life. Should he choose to call or come around, so be it, but the guard doesn’t come down and my expectations are 0. It was work and is continual work when he decides to pop in. In the end, I can rest knowing I made every attempt at making some sort of effort to work things out.

    My Mother is a whole story in and of herself too.

    For me personally, I worked a lot of this out with a therapist in my 20’s. Sometimes things are so complex that an outside perspective (if it’s an option) can be a great tool to figuring out what path works for you in dealing. What works for one person, doesn’t work for another.

    Maybe in order to find out the answer to sending the letter or not is to ask yourself if you’re prepared for and okay with whatever outcome your mother reading the letter will have? Are you prepared for and ok with not telling her your side of things? Is it time for you to start down the path to working through these specific events, or is it time to just feel your feelings and get a grip on them?

    These things are never easy but I do truly hope you’re able to find some clarity and peace.

    • mckarlie says:

      Yeah I think that’s what really hit me. Once I send this, there’s very little chance we will ever be ok but honestly we would never be ok if I don’t send it, we can’t bury all that’s happened and pretend it didn’t, because it effects me every day of my life. I have decided I’m ready to do it and her reaction is on her, all I can do is put the truth out there. I’m actually starting therapy again tomorrow, in the nick of time no doubt lol can’t wait to work through this and get on the other side of it. Thanks so much for your input

  4. jaymme68 says:

    Hi friend. You need to mail the letter. Please accept before you mail it that she may not respond, and you may not know whether or not she read it, and you have to be ok with this. The letter is for YOU. YOU need to let her know for your own piece of mind how she made you feel. She needs to accept some responsibility for what she let happen to you, and even though she won’t admit it TO you, your words WiLL be a healing process for YOU. Go with your first instinct and the reasons behind why you wrote the letter in the first place. YOU need this. We always love our family no matter how they treat us and it hurts so bad when we can’t find acceptance, or approval, and especially the LOVE that we need, but unfortunately it does not always happen. You have to start putting yourself first, and I believe mailing that letter just may be the first step for YOU to let go. Get it off your conscience, and let it go. And be ok with the fact that might be it, from what you have said about her she probably will not accept any blame for what happened to you, but at least you will have had that chance to tell her how you feel. Do it. You will feel better. Best of everything. Hang in there.

    • mckarlie says:

      Yep, I’ve decided to send it, this afternoon in fact. It is a little harsh in places but I wasn’t nasty, I just pointed out the facts as I see them and that I don’t want her talking about me anymore because it gets back to me. I think it just made me depressed because this really is the end of the road for her and I, and if she doesn’t know what my first step father did then she’s about to find out, which also scares me a lot. But you’re right, I have to send it for ME, and I’m sure she’ll flip her shit but part of her knows it’s true, and maybe one day she will admit it to me or at least to herself. Thanks for your input it’s greatly appreciated 🙂

  5. Calzorganics says:

    Forgiveness. To forgive yourself for any mistakes you believe you committed. Forgive yourself for not running away, speaking out or fighting. Forgive yourself for thinking you are to blame. Forgive yourself.
    Forgive your mother. She may not have acted as you perceived. You won’t know unless you talk to her about it.
    Forgive others for not knowing what was happening, it is very hard for those outside to see what is happening to you, because you hide it out of shame and the offender hides it to get away with it.
    Know that you did nothing wrong. You did not cause this abuse, not did you deserve it.
    Know that you are a beautiful person who suffered great pain.
    Know that you are a strong person for delving deep into your pain and facing it without fear.
    Know that you are not alone. There are others who have experienced similar situations.
    Know that you do not have to suffer any more.

    There is no cure for your feelings. There is no off switch for the feelings of isolation, invincibility, violation, self doubt, self sabotage or shame.
    There are support groups for abuse survivors and it may help to meet some people who have been through the same thing.

    I use meditation to manage my issues with abuse and sexual assault.
    I can post you a copy of my book if you like?
    Email me if you want it calzorganics@gmail.com

    • mckarlie says:

      Through therapy I learned to forgive myself for my own mistakes, I learned that even though I was a ‘difficult’ teen I never deserved the abuse I received. I’m hopeful that through therapy I will be able to forgive her, but it’s definitely important for me to tell her through my letter just how her actions affected me. She already knows a lot of it but lives in a deep state of denial, as does the man who abused me all those years, hence he drinks daily.

      Thanks for sharing your thoughts, what is your book about? Learning to cope and forgive after abuse?

  6. RubyTuesday says:

    I don’t know what to say about sending the letter, I’m not so great with advice but just wanted to let you know I’d read this and thinking of you. Good luck whether you send it or not, if don’t send it burn it so it’s not hanging around.

    • mckarlie says:

      Thank you lovely. After writing this and interacting I have identified my main issues with why I haven’t sent it yet and why I’m scared to, and I think it’s what if she doesn’t know about the sexual abuse and thinks I’m lying or something, she’s great at denial. But I have reconciled myself to send it, I know what happened and now remember it in vivid detail, sadly. Her reaction to the letter and whether or not she believes me are now immaterial, I’m going to send it to get it off my chest and start working in therapy to forgive her and move on. Thanks so much for your care *hugs*

  7. mistress4u says:

    mckarlie, thank you for posting. Many of the items you touched upon reminded me of aspects of my own childhood. Although similar, we are all unique individuals and respond in our own “unique ways”. I think letter writing can be an important process is reflecting on our past however although in the short term it can affect us, longer term it enables us to process such memories.. We can’t change the past however we can change our outlook on it e.g. although it has been a negative and extremely upsetting experience for you it provided you the template of “now how to be a mother”. Also, do you think the letter was provoked by the age of your children possibly being a similar age to when you were going through this difficult time? I don’t wish to know the age of your children but I guess just a thought for you. Your own here and now experience of protecting your children might be reminding you the lack of protection you received as a child (and even as an adult as you highlighted).
    I have wrote many times a letter to my own mother however I never sent it. Sometimes I write a letter “pretending” to be her, what I would hope she would say etc. This in turn starts me to internalise a loving mother that I have created…enabling me to resolve some of the difficult emotions and memories.
    I’m just wondering if it would helpful to think what you would be hoping for if you did send it.
    Thank you for writing and take care.

    • mckarlie says:

      I think it was prompted by recently catching up with my 19 year old half sister. The version of events my mother had given her was drastically different to the facts of the situation and while I set my sister straight on a lot of things, it started to brew me that I needed my mother to hear my perspective, whether or not she agrees is of no consequence now, I’ve decided all I can do is put it out there and deep down she knows what she’s done. My children are of a similar age, nearly ten and 8 1/2, and perhaps subconsciously that is part of the reason but I’ve known for some time that I’ve wanted to write this letter, I just didn’t have the fortitude to do so until recently. I agree that letter writing is cathartic whether sent or not, I have written many unsent letters just to get it out and gain perspective. I think the bond to ones mother is innate and when it’s severed it leaves so many questions and holes, but I think slowly I am accepting she is not really my Mother anymore and hasn’t been for a long time. Thank you for taking the time to read and contribute, it’s all helpful in my healing process, I appreciate it 🙂

  8. crissybwell says:

    Hey friend. I just saw this post and I hope that you are doing ok. I was wondering where you went. I can’t say that I know what you mean and have gone through. I can relate to the emotional distance though and feeling of needing to be comforted and not getting that. It’s sad that we can’t get unconditional love from our families and especially parents. I don’t have kids so I don’t know but I could never imagine not bring there and supporting them. Isn’t that what love is? Love is about caring about the person and being there no matter what. We have people and times in our lives when we have no one so in those times we really should have our families. I’m glad to read that you sent or are sending the letter. I think it is something you need. It’s hard but I think it will help you with your emotions and feelings to have them expresses. Know that I’m always here and supporting you. Hugs!!

    • mckarlie says:

      Yeah when I get really down I tend to hide under my shell, not the most productive way of dealing with things but sometimes you have to just tread water till you’re able to swim again. How have you been lovely? We need to have an email catch up, I’ve been wondering about how things are going for you. Thank you for your friendship lovely girl *hugs*

      • crissybwell says:

        It’s ok, I completely understand, I tend to do that too. I have been in the same kind of place as you, but still trying to push myself to keep writing. For me writing and posting, that is what keeps me going right now and even if I get down at least I still have some kind of outlet.

        But I have been ok, up and down some, but that is life. I do hope that we get to email again soon, I have missed our chats. *hugs* friend!! Talk again soon.

      • mckarlie says:

        I’m so sorry you’ve been down, you’re so right, it’s important to at least try to keep writing, even when it’s the last thing we feel like doing it really does help. I’ve been blown away by the support and encouragement I’ve received through my blog, it helps so much. I emailed you earlier today, we will have a big chat *hugs*

      • crissybwell says:

        I saw the email 🙂 I look forward to chatting again, I have missed you. I know how it is so there aren’t any hard feelings or anything, depression can be so overwhelming and life just seems to get us down. But you always have support and talk soon 🙂 *hugs*

      • mckarlie says:

        Aww I’ve missed you too, can’t wait to have a catch up. You’re so lovely, never forget that *hugs*

  9. […] Holding onto pain from the past (mckarlie) digs into the pain of sexual abuse and its affect on mental health. […]

  10. ThatGirl says:

    Reading your story has always been hard for me because I can’t even imagine the pain you have felt or how you get through it, but after reading a lot of your blog I’ve realized your a really strong person and I admire you a lot. I think sending the letter would benefit you in a lot of ways, you’d finally get to say what you feel and even if it doesn’t make her feel responsibility you will at least you that you tried and that “what if” feeling won’t be holding you down. And what’s the worst that could happen? because you said you didn’t have a relationship with her as of now, so the only place you can go from there is up. good luck with whatever you decide to do and I look forward to reading more from you (:

    • mckarlie says:

      You’re very right, there’s nothing to lose and maybe one day she will contact me and actually want to discuss things openly and honestly, I won’t hold my breath for that but the only way is up from here. Thank you so much for your kind words, I don’t consider myself brave just honest, but I spent many years hiding from my past, this blog and connecting with people has been so healing for me. Starting therapy again this afternoon so I’m hoping that together with the blog is really going to get me through all of this. Your kind words mean a lot, thank you 🙂

      • ThatGirl says:

        you are so welcome (:and I hope she does come around one day and things can be resolved or at least be put out in the open so you know where you guys stand, i wish you so much luck with therapy and hope you can heal and find peace with everything ❤

      • mckarlie says:

        Yeah who knows what the future holds, but I need to be ok with my family not being a part of my life, and if things change and they can change and be a positive part of my life then I’m more than willing to accept that.

        I appreciate your support, you’re very kind. Take care lovely 🙂

  11. luciddream85 says:

    If we didn’t live on different continents, i would swear we had the same mother. If you send her that letter, send it for you. Don’t send it to try to make her see and understand what she’s done to you. She sounds narcissistic like my mother, and there is a 99.9% chance that no matter what you try to show her, she’s only ever going to see how she is the victim, and how it isn’t her fault. It will give her something to become dramatic about, to run her mouth to the family about, to make you feel like less of a person because you wanted to be honest with her. Just know that no matter how much you and everyone else knows this shit is her fault, she will never, ever see it that way. It’s why I just told my mom she was the worst kind of bitch, and she was dead to me. I’m sick and damn tired of her hurting me with her selfish actions. But if you need to send it to her, just for your peace of mind, then do so. But expect some selfish hateful response from her, via facebook or e-mail, about how she’s the victim and this is your fault.

    it’s just what they do.

  12. Author Catherine Townsend-Lyon says:

    What a Brave post! I found you from another blog I just started following about mental health…..I am a survivor of sexual abuse as well, by my brother and family friend of my brothers……When my past started to resurface, I went to a therapist who told me after I’d been seeing him for awhile, that I had to tell my parents what had happened to me…….It was a mixed bag of things that happened!!
    Of course when I told them, I became the Black Sheep of the Family…..MORE so then I already was…..My dad connected it to my past behavior, but didn’t say a word except “things make sense now”????…..My mother of course didn’t believe me……..She said,”She would have known that if something like THAT was happening in her house, she would have known”….???? Then asked why I didn’t say anything when it was happening, that I was just making this LIE up for attention.

    Then at the same time, I called and told my brother that I was letting the family know what happened to me. Me and my husband were on 2 different phones I told him I was in therapy and was told that it was time to get it all out in the open…..well of course he freaked, and the only concern he had was that his Wife at the time, he didn’t want her to know what was going on, the reason was……my therapist said he by Law had to inform the Authorities of my abuse, that’s why I called my brother in the 1st place, to warn him……and he freaked! He told me to tell them to call him at his work, not at his home.

    He did however in his own way tell me and my husband that he was very sorry, and that HE had been Abused by a family friend of my parents when he was young, he just never said anything…..
    I was told by my therapist that my brother most likely was telling the truth because MOST abusers have been abused themselves. So story short, nothing happened by law enforcement because the statues of limitation had already run out, and because he lives in California, and I in Oregon.

    BUT….the only positive thing was knowning my Husband new I was telling the truth, but he had believed me all along. Do I feel any better that it all came out…….Not really, and I’m just being HONEST, because my family treated me different after that, also I was diagnosed with Bi-polar2 and severe Depression, most likely suffering since I was little, and my family didn’t understand that either! Especially since I was having to take Meds……..I have written a lot of this in my book
    that was just released a few months back called: Addicted To Dimes, (Confessions of a liar and a Cheat) http://www.amazon.com/dp/0984478485/

    YOU just need to do what is right for YOU and not worry about how others will accept it or not. YOU need to become Healthy, and if that means Purging all that you went through……THAN SO BE IT…….Your not alone anymore, and that counts for something 🙂 🙂 I’m here anytime you need SUPPORT! http://catherinelyonaddictedtodimes.wordpress.com

    Hugs & Blessings, Catherine 🙂

    • mckarlie says:

      I’m so sorry you went through that, it takes great courage to be open about abuse and to be treated in that way is so disheartening. I think that’s what stopped me from sending the letter, worrying about being perceived as a liar by the family but I think my mother knows or at least has an inkling that it happened, as for the abuse from her second husband there’s no question there, she was there and witnessed it over and over. I also included in my letter how my cousin and my roommate roofied me and then lied to my boyfriend about it and I know she will deny it, but that’s out of my hands all I can do is put my truth out there and try to heal.

      Thanks for your kindness and support, it’s greatly appreciated 🙂

  13. First of all, you were a “difficult,” more like troubled teen because of the abuse you endured. I hope you realize that.

    Also sounds like my narcissistic father. He turned our home into a drug house and I ran away when I was 15 – to the only place I had left to go, my aunt and uncle’s house. I stayed with them for the remainder of high school but my uncle was molesting me the entire time. When I finally got up the courage to tell my aunt when I was 17, she basically said oh, well I love him and not going to leave him, so deal with it. I’ve been battling, PTSD, anxiety, and depression ever since and basically just going mad because nobody in my family has ever understood why I feel the way I do, or why I feel so negatively about what has happened to me. For 8 years I went back for holidays, etc because I knew if I didn’t I would hurt my grandmother. My mother died when I was 14 and this aunt is her only remaining daughter. Well it got to a point where I couldn’t take it anymore, and I wrote my grandmother a letter telling her everything that happened and that I want nothing to do with my aunt or uncle anymore.

    My aunt ended up leaving my uncle, but only after I sent my grandmother this letter. My grandmother still doesn’t understand why I want nothing to do with my aunt. In addition to neglecting the situation, she also was very emotionally abusive in general which I have never really been able to talk about and I guess I should someday, but this alone in my opinion is enough reason not to want her in my life. My grandmother continually pressures me to be in touch, however, which hurts me every time, and I have lost a great deal of respect for my grandmother, which is also crushing because I have always adored her. I just don’t feel, after all I’ve been through, that I need to humor anyone else by putting myself in a situation that triggers my anxiety anymore. I probably won’t spend a holiday with my grandmother ever again because as long as she chooses to spend them with my aunt, which she always will, I won’t be there.

    All in all, I’m glad I sent the letter. At least now she knows why I act the way that I do, and I know where she stands, even though it wasn’t the response of love and empathy I was hoping for. I hope you are satisfied with whatever comes of your letter as well.

    • mckarlie says:

      I can see how your grandmothers insistence and support of your aunt feels like a betrayal, my mother allowing all the things that happened to me feels the same way. My grandparents never condoned my stepfathers actions and put a great deal of pressure on my mother to deal with him, but they wouldn’t kick them out of the house as my mother had three young children to him and they figured they were better off with their supervision.

      The more we confront what’s happened to us the stronger we will get, it’s definitely two steps forward one step back but sharing through my blog has been one of the best things I have ever done, and when you’re ready I urge you to share as much as you can, the support I receive through my blog makes things easier to deal with and speaking with others who have been through similar turmoil is really helpful. I do know that it wasn’t my fault but I was definitely “difficult” – my bipolar plays a big part in that along with all the trauma I had been through.

      I wish you all the best with your journey of healing, thanks for sharing

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